Admin
Registered: June 2005
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Here the breeder of the cripple _ admits to me
that I the stud dog owner offered to spay this cripple and
send her buyers to make up for the 4,000 surgery she had to get
From Vic Evans"It is very generous of you to offer to pay for Peaches being spayed, and to refer buyers to me if I agree to limit my breeding plans. As for full disclosure, I don't fear that. I have never made a secret to anyone of the fact I know nothing about Angel's sire, or that she and Coz produced a dysplastic pup, or that Peaches and Akayla have needed ACL surgery. "
Please note the HD affected dog the Ed affected dog the 4 ACL injuries are missing from her website........
Peaches Sister Akayla Both ACL Surgery 5,000 Surgery
Peaches Sister Sarah one ACL no surgery can not work.
Peaches Brother Owner Vince BOTH acl's and Elbow Dyplasica 8,000 surgery
Peaches Brother Big Boy has disappeared after he started to Limp
Peaches Brother Vanila Kids TOTAL Dysplastic both hips Needs 8,000 Surgery owner does not have.
Peaches Brother Spec Shoulder Dyplasia
That leaves one pup out of 8 alexis that is not affected with one disease or another.
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Admin
Registered: June 2005
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In addition the breeder claimed she would contact all buyers to determine if they all had the disease....
SHE NEVER DID the male in CT that has had 8,000 worth of surgery has never been contacted.
The claim was " i will contact all buyers and make a educated decesion whether to breed peaches"
How educated can the decision be if you never contact the owners of affected dogs?
Last when asked what happens if the bitch blows her ACL again ? the answer was "put her to sleep" so you pay 4,000 to correct a bitch so you can bred 10000 worth of pups from her to then put her to sleep? this is ethical?
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Admin
Registered: June 2005
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This was posted in Dec the bitch is due in JUNE
I guess it was not a lie "full year is needed"
hursday, December 01, 2005 9:09 AM
"Any decision to breed Peaches is at least 8-9 months away, as it takes a full year to recover completely from the surgeries she has had. "
We went from 9 months till 4 ? why the other pups are all UNSOLD maybe breeding a COz grandkid would get a pup sold
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Admin
Registered: June 2005
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"Peaches/Nik pups should NOT show it, but ALL be carriers, since they can ONLY get the recessive gene from Peaches. She doesn't have a dominant gene to give them. All pups that go out will be spay/neuter, PERIOD. I wouldn't breed her at all if not to prove Nik or Hammer were NOT carriers...it's called a test breeding. And I have to keep pups a long time...months....to prove the breeding is legitimate. Steve is willing to do this. So we can breed it out of the line 98%, which is considered a clear rating. The only way any pups will be afflicted is if Nik or Hammer are Carriers also, which we don't think they are, but will PROVE by breeding them to Peaches, and any offspring we keep to breed will be bred to either Nik or Hammer to produce clear offspring. NO BREEDING STOCK WHATSOEVER goes out from Peaches. EVER!!!!
She will be spayed after 2 litters, if she is able to HAVE two litters,
and the DAY she no longer can live without pain, she goes to sleep. We are kinder to our animals than to people we love.
Right now, the adequan injection is working well, with Rimadyl, and she is very mobile if stiff on the rear. She jumps, runs, is bright-eyed and happy, good appetite, plays and barks and is overall doing well.......NOT always in pain. Enjoying life.
Vic
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Admin
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Coz X Tasha 2 Litters NO HD ED OR ACL 8 pups age 6
Coz X Ali Age NO HD ED OR ACL 9 pups Age 3
Coz X Jlo too young bred to OFA Excellent
Grand Total 17 adults 3 litters , 1 Entropian, 2 immune issues from liver Bitch Tasha.
One of those issues is FF Tanky Wanky alive well and neutered we neuter any dog that has any signs of a inherited disease 2006.
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Admin
Registered: June 2005
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Forcing a dog who was crippled and will have early arthitis to carry a litter at age 4.5 yrs for the first time is CRUEL ..
Timing of an elective orthopedic surgery should revolve around several factors according to Michael Bauer, DVM, a surgery specialist at Veterinary Specialists of Southern Colorado in Colorado Springs, CO. “If the problem in question is likely to progress to the point that surgical repair will be unsuccessful, timely repair becomes important. An example of this is canine ACL (Anterior Cruciate Ligament) tears. Nearly all dogs with ACL tears develop debilitating, progressive arthritis. Because ACL repairs do not involve joint replacement but rely on the health of the existing joint, early surgical intervention is important
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Admin
Registered: June 2005
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Hi JD,
I think you sound like the kind of breeder I would want to go to, if
I ever considered going to a breeder. Don't ever lose what you have
now.
>Thank you again my buyers past present and future know about this outside litter.
>I dont hide anything but honestly is not shared amoungest many breeders.
The sibling pairings would definitely create more affected dogs.
>I have this logic in mind but how come it seems like I am pulling teeth when i try to >explain a gut feeling? Truth is not much out there in k-9 research what is truley >inherited vs not.
>So I go on my gut dog is sick and need surgery to survive would of been killed off in Natural selection. You pet the dog out and spay or neuter_ simply you would >think .
>I was a big dog show advocate and sadly learned once somene invests into a show >champion they use that status to A condone any breeding B recoup money spend >on those titles.
That's how recessive traits get passed on and why humans aren't
supposed to marry close relatives. Too much risk of the relatives
carrying the recessive traits and combining to bring about the full
blown condition.
>Well I remember the old movies where blood tests were required for a marriage lic .
>Wonder why they dont do that now . Because if you are set on having a family and >both of you carry a recessive genee that has high chance coming out in a full blown disease in your kids..... Maybe you would look else where. At age 19 with your whole life ahead of you vs being 30 and match up genes that will bring heartache for the rest of your life.... I know humans are not the same as dogs. But I truley just> >wish to limit my heartache as a older person in regards to my pups...
I forgot to comment on the size of dogs. Size alone isn't the real
factor. It's height/weight ratio that is the big issue. If dogs have
a height/weight ratio under 3 then they're okay. It's dogs that are
heavier than they are tall that usually have more joint problems
because their poor joints have to carry all that extra weight. Does
that make sense?
>Yes it does also relates to humans.... I was once >125 lbs under and had no issues >
>I would assume the same applies to the dog with >both surgically repaired ACL being forced to carry a> litter.... What are the chances of her not blowing >them out again? and what is the use of putting a >dog thru that? if the risk is so high...
I don't know of any sites that deal with the inheritance of ACL
problems but I'm not one to keep track of websites. Hopefully
somebody else might jump in with something.
Good luck and keep up the good fight for your breed.
Brenda
>Thank you I will one day put this all on my website >if the litter goes on to be bred
>Hope I can handle the negative that will come >from it knowing in the long run honesty is the best >despite the opposition i will surely face stating I >should keep in HUSH HUSH and that I am doing this >only for competition...
JD
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Admin
Registered: June 2005
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Hi JD,
First of all I think you must be a rare thing among breeders for at
least asking all the right questions and trying to produce the best
possible dogs.
First of all, yes there is an inheritable component to ACL injuries.
Unfortunately nobody has discovered what that is. It is said that if
a dog turns up with ACL problems under the age of 2 years, then the
inheritable traits have played more of a role then they normally do.
I think it's a judgement call on your part to remove this particular
dog from your breeding stock since you haven't had any problems up
until now. If you have alot of other breeding males then I would
probably err on the side of caution and remove him. I do not think
you would be irresponsible if you kept him in your breeding pool. But
just make sure you ask puppy buyers to report any problems to you so
that you can track them.
HD is a whole other can of worms. It's inheritance is partially known
and any dog that produces a dog with HD should be removed from the
breeding pool. HD can skip many, many generations as it is recessive
and involves multiple genes. Suddenly producing a dog with HD isn't
all that uncommon and it's proof that both mother and father carry
the affected genes. But having said that, genetics is only one part
of HD. Environment also plays a role. So again, it's really up to you
as a responsible breeder if you choose to remove these dogs from your
breeding pool. Whatever you decide, just make sure to keep track of
your puppies and stress to buyers that it's important for them to
report back to you any joint issues that come up, regardless of how
old the dog is.
There is no screening for any joint problems. You just have to do
what you feel is right for the betterment of your breed.
If you have any other questions I'll try to answer them the best I
can. Unfortunately there are alot of unknowns when it comes to these
conditions and we just do our best with the information we have.
Brenda
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Admin
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Thanks everyone for all the emails........
The fact that ACL is indeed inherited is NEW what genes and what % is needed from each part of the breeding is not known. Fact remains if a dog only produces issues with one bitch and not with 5 others.... The dominant gene is with the bitch .
So only dog politics would say neuter the male that has NOT bred this issue ever again when bred away from this bitch.
But keep the bitch intact that bred this despite serious reproduction issues in last 2 litters, and keep the crippled progeny intact for breeding but neuter the male that is does not have it and has NEVER Produced any issues when bred to a OFA better scored bitch...
Is the logic? what a joke PLEASE.
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Admin
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This is the Molosser post still up that someone is MISS quoting again
ACL is inherited New American Vet Medical Association need link? Sorry to working people.
Posted by Jd on 5/22/2006, 5:36 pm
User logged in as: JD
24.54.74.181
Just got off the Tel with OFA Vet Dr Keller is seems that ACL is now proven to be inherited and he quoted new proof cited in a News story from the AVMA..
I need to get a copy of it and are buzy with the show.......
Please send any and all info about this subject and if you can find this newstory.
I will call them tomorrow.
As you know by now sadly 5 years ago I bred my male Coz to a outside b###h bred by Rusdog the puppymiller owned by a different breeder than I
It resulted in 4 dogs out of 8 having ACL injuries 3 requiring over $20,000 in corrective surgery....
1 Dog has OCD another has HD and another ED.
It took 4 years for all this issues to come out. SInce the 4 litters I bred this same male to never produced any of this issues. I had to find out teh hard way _when the buyers of this breeders litter called me for help ( no contact from the breeder)
Thank god they had thousands to spend on their dogs they are all alive and well that we know of one is missing.
The sire is OFA Good from Working parents and the dam is OFA Fair from show parents.
Now for some reason the breeder feels it is NOT inherited despite half the litter having it and the other 3/4 having other disorders.
Leaving only one dog out of 8 so far without it.
Now you all have seen any some people would like any publicity than nothing at all even if it is negative so i wont name the breeder..
I offered the breeder ( have emails) $500 to spay the b###h and 4,000 in breeder referrals to a outside line not carrying this disease.
I was turned dowm IT is againest our clubs code of ethics to breed a dog that natural selection would of weeded out.
We have a new website going up and I need as much information as possible....
If anyone every asks me again " why dont you stud your dogs out" the answer will be because the other breeders do not have morals or ethics enough to keep the culls from breeding.
So i have to say im sorry to all the working people on this board years ago I was on your butts when you claimed show people suck and breed sick dogs.
You are right the excuse to breed this cripple is "she is a show champion" a working dog person would of put her down a pet person would spay and fix the issue a sadly in this case a show person is breeding the cripple..
Im very sad but feel honesty is the best policy..
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Admin
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Post removed confusing this female with another.
No this is not the bitch that was bred on her 1st heat that is Peeruzy with no OFA TT or Titles...
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Admin
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Direct quote vs hearsay~ response to all affected dogs in the litter not just one
Posted by JD on 5/23/2006, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Dr Keller OFA Contact info"
Message modified by administrator JDP 5/23/2006, 1:49 pm
OFA does not subscribe to Dog World so I cannot comment on the accuracy of the quote.
As we discussed yesterday CCL rupture can be due to acute trauma or degenerative. The degenerative form is longer onset and symptoms may be obscure. This form probably has a genetic basis. The January 1, 2006 AVMA paper is the first population study that I am aware of that actually states a genetic basis and heritability index of RCCL.
Thank you for your inquiry.
G.G. Keller, D.V.M., MS
Diplomate ACVR
Chief of Veterinary Services
ggk/cas
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From: Jeannine De Palma [mailto:foxfirefarms@adelphia.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:14 AM
To: ofa
Subject: To Dr Keller
Regarding our conversation yesterday in which you are being quoted as saying "ALL ACL are not inherited."
Here is the quote
"According to the published words of the head of OFA, Dr. Keller, ACL is NOT a genetic defect. This statement is published in the May 2006 issue of Dog World, page 19, if anyone is interested in his quote. I would call him a fairly reputable source of information about ACL, wouldn't you? Since he is the HEAD of the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals"
I was able to get that Newfie study thanks for the heads up but i can find this quote. Does it exist ? or was it taken out of context?
Jeannine De Palma
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Admin
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Please note this new litter is being advertised but no mention of the HD affected dog or the ED affected dog or that the bitch has crippled ACL.
Truth in adversting is just required for some.
Do you think the buyers have a right to now that the mom was a cripple before being bred?
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pitbullpony
Registered: November 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 211
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Wed June 7, 2006 10:52
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Rating: 10.00
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I think the buyers have every right to know the genetic (true) health of the dam and sire. If there are puppy lemon laws in the state this breeding is taking place and being sold to; I would want a contract that stated ANY lameness issues related to what has occurred in this bloodline in the past; will be taken care of by the bitch's owner.
I do consider it unethical to perform "test" breedings on a bitch that most likely is not physically sound enough to carry a litter; especially if it may be a large one.
Breeding this poor bitch was not an endeavour worth undertaking.
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Admin
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When a issue comes from this line that relates back to the original litter that is affected with HD ED and ACL. I will offer all the emails and my witnness account that the dam was uncrippled by the hands of a Vet to make her viable enough to breed and the breeder had pre knowledge of the conditons and has refused to contact the other buyers with crippled dogs before she bred this bitch.
Kin to what I dont know OFFICIALLY dont hurt thing. But omission to buyers is the same as lying in a court of law. So lemon laws will be able to be used in court.
Just so sad I feel so bad for the dog being forced to carry a litter on 2 brand new repaired ligaments. First thing they tell you is "keep the dog lean" and now as per the breeder " she is HUGE with pups"...
I guess she will disappear one day after the litter " shot by another hunter" hit by another car or just dropped dead like 3 other dogs that have died under wierd situation there.
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